Quote from howard678:

<>

I`ve heard this affirmation before but personally think there are a lot of people that need to be on meds, that or institutionalized, and have real problems with people on the net writing with an aire of scientific authority (not saying you are one) strongly implying or downright telling people they do not know from Adam to drop all meds, this based on drug company conspiracy theories. I would not be surprised if some, if not many deaths have occured as a result. How many that just up and go away from the boards are now in the ground? Though there may be some profit driven motives when it comes to SSRIs, but hardly with benzos as the patents have long run out and people typically get dirt cheap generics.

The insane has been with us in abundance since the beginning of recorded history. I have observed them in action, bi-polar and the like, it`s far out, and all I can think of right now claimed the condition pre-existed the meds. One may debate cause and effect, but if the truth be known, there is mystery here. I think most doctors would admit this but if it comes down to suicide or strong meds, an institution or experiment with meds, perhaps let the doctors do their jobs and try the meds. I dare not toy with their conditions, out of my league. Though I know there is a lot of over-prescribing and too little non-drug therapy. The disclaimers that go with these forums should be truly heeded and not viewed as simply a CYA...

Yes, I do agree. I would never tell someone to get off meds if they have a severe case of bi-polar or schizophrenia. But my point was, those conditions are pretty rare compared to the amount of people being given pills for life situations, poor health habit, stress, grief, etc. My poor mother-in-law, as I mentioned before, was hounded over her "tiredness" at age 76 to take SSRi's and even her former doctor scared her up when her husband died many years ago, saying that she couldn't survive it without Prozac. Lucky she wasn't one for pills or by now I'm sure she'd be on many and labeled as mentally ill.

You know, since you mention bi-polar, I've read about some celebrity cases where although symptoms were present before meds, there had been a psychoactive drug history, sometimes illegal or legal. I wonder if there is a connection to them and also alcohol seems to be in the history too. I know people like Carrie Fisher, Robert DowneyJr., Margot Kidder and Patty Duke had drug histories before the diagnoisis and subsequent drug treatments for bi-polar. I read an article where Margot Kidder was on drug treatments for her bipolar and simply got worse; she decided to get off her meds and instead go to a doctor specializing in amino acid treatments and it was quite successful for her. I also read where some research indicated B-vitamins were helping cure schizophrenia. This all makes sense to me because I read that when protein digests, assisted by carbs and vitamins, , it breaks down into amino acids. If you look up amino acid charts, they all seem to be involved in creating neurotransmitters, vital for mental health!

All that makes me wonder if there are better ways for the truly mentally ill other than toxic drugs. I realize in severe cases, they don't have time to fool around and the drugs definately are needed as some sort of control factor to save the person's life or others who might be in danger of those people. But I really think they don't spend enough research on exploring the other options....which I imagine are not as profitable, however, as drugs so maybe that's why the mainstream psychiatric doesn't go after such options.

Drug treatment can still end up in disaster, look at Andrea Yates. One of the Columbine shooters was on Luvox, which can cause manic reactions and suicidial idealizations. Even if the Luvox didn't play a part in his thinking(which many believe it did), at the very least we can say the drug failed to do it's job in keeping the boy somewhat sane.

Anyway, my whole point at the beginning was the drugs are prescribed often to too many people who may not be mentally ill at all; but these uncertain drugs are perfectly capable of creating mental illness over time...

Quote from Jennita:

Yes, I do agree. I would never tell someone to get off meds if they have a severe case of bi-polar or schizophrenia. But my point was, those conditions are pretty rare compared to the amount of people being given pills for life situations, poor health habit, stress, grief, etc. My poor mother-in-law, as I mentioned before, was hounded over her "tiredness" at age 76 to take SSRi's and even her former doctor scared her up when her husband died many years ago, saying that she couldn't survive it without Prozac. Lucky she wasn't one for pills or by now I'm sure she'd be on many and labeled as mentally ill.

You know, since you mention bi-polar, I've read about some celebrity cases where although symptoms were present before meds, there had been a psychoactive drug history, sometimes illegal or legal. I wonder if there is a connection to them and also alcohol seems to be in the history too. I know people like Carrie Fisher, Robert DowneyJr., Margot Kidder and Patty Duke had drug histories before the diagnoisis and subsequent drug treatments for bi-polar. I read an article where Margot Kidder was on drug treatments for her bipolar and simply got worse; she decided to get off her meds and instead go to a doctor specializing in amino acid treatments and it was quite successful for her. I also read where some research indicated B-vitamins were helping cure schizophrenia. This all makes sense to me because I read that when protein digests, assisted by carbs and vitamins, , it breaks down into amino acids. If you look up amino acid charts, they all seem to be involved in creating neurotransmitters, vital for mental health!

All that makes me wonder if there are better ways for the truly mentally ill other than toxic drugs. I realize in severe cases, they don't have time to fool around and the drugs definately are needed as some sort of control factor to save the person's life or others who might be in danger of those people. But I really think they don't spend enough research on exploring the other options....which I imagine are not as profitable, however, as drugs so maybe that's why the mainstream psychiatric doesn't go after such options.

Drug treatment can still end up in disaster, look at Andrea Yates. One of the Columbine shooters was on Luvox, which can cause manic reactions and suicidial idealizations. Even if the Luvox didn't play a part in his thinking(which many believe it did), at the very least we can say the drug failed to do it's job in keeping the boy somewhat sane.

Anyway, my whole point at the beginning was the drugs are prescribed often to too many people who may not be mentally ill at all; but these uncertain drugs are perfectly capable of creating mental illness over time...

It makes sense that most people that are prescribed SSRIs do not need them. The vitamins, amino acid therapies fall under alternative medicine which seems to be just getting off the ground. Doctors are probably reluctant to delve in this arena for fear of lawsuits. We are a lawsuit happy nation, millionaires made over night over trivial matters. Prescribing F.D.A. approved medicines is a much safer bet for them. They have invested huge sums and effort in getting their licenses and do not want to lose them.

I am aware of no solid clinical evidence that SSRIs or benzos cause "mental illness" or any permanent damage. In the case of the latter Ashton says the contrary. If one is to make such affirmations of fact please come with some solid broad based evidence. Something more than Breggin, one psychiatrist on the net that is selling books and taking patients. That is unless we are to call a withdrawal syndrome or anti-social behavior while on the drug "mental illness." But in that case there is hardly any mind altering, inhibition lowering drug that could be left out, including alcohol. Then we would have lawsuits against Budweiser. And the whole "the drug made me do it theme" is questionable in itself, "the twinkie defense."

My contention all along has been that conclusions drawn from small samplings of internet personal testimonies or minimal and/or questionable internet sources, faulty analysis, and sometimes out and out fanaticism are hurting a lot of people, especially when such contentions are stated so a matter of factly. The truth is, according to Ashton, is that many come off of these drugs with no problems and the rest typically are fine within 3 months. With just with my own minimal time I have found at least a dozen people that came off benzos, some fast, some slow, some C/T, all fine within two months. This is the norm, what to be expected, but if someone is led to expect something different they are liable to get it. You see now why I am not welcome in your standard benzo support forums. Even though I always walked on eggshells and was far less candid than at present here. But actually I came here mainly to offer some support, not to re-visit the same old stuff I wisely removed myself from.

Quote from howard678:

It makes sense that most people that are prescribed SSRIs do not need them. The vitamins, amino acid therapies fall under alternative medicine which seems to be just getting off the ground. Doctors are probably reluctant to delve in this arena for fear of lawsuits. We are a lawsuit happy nation, millionaires made over night over trivial matters. Prescribing F.D.A. approved medicines is a much safer bet for them. They have invested huge sums and effort in getting their licenses and do not want to lose them.

I am aware of no solid clinical evidence that SSRIs or benzos cause "mental illness" or any permanent damage. In the case of the latter Ashton says the contrary. If one is to make such affirmations of fact please come with some solid broad based evidence. Something more than Breggin, one psychiatrist on the net that is selling books and taking patients. That is unless we are to call a withdrawal syndrome or anti-social behavior while on the drug "mental illness." But in that case there is hardly any mind altering, inhibition lowering drug that could be left out, including alcohol. Then we would have lawsuits against Budweiser. And the whole "the drug made me do it theme" is questionable in itself, "the twinkie defense."

My contention all along has been that conclusions drawn from small samplings of internet personal testimonies or minimal and/or questionable internet sources, faulty analysis, and sometimes out and out fanaticism are hurting a lot of people, especially when such contentions are stated so a matter of factly. The truth is, according to Ashton, is that many come off of these drugs with no problems and the rest typically are fine within 3 months. With just with my own minimal time I have found at least a dozen people that came off benzos, some fast, some slow, some C/T, all fine within two months. This is the norm, what to be expected, but if someone is led to expect something different they are liable to get it. You see now why I am not welcome in your standard benzo support forums. Even though I always walked on eggshells and was far less candid than at present here. But actually I came here mainly to offer some support, not to re-visit the same old stuff I wisely removed myself from.

Whoo there howard,

Yep, I suppose I didn't make myself clear on the "causing" mental illness but you did hit it on the head in trying to decipher what I meant....yes, it's the withdrawal syndrome and antisocial behavior you mentioned! Those things are exactly what is interpreted by the psychiatric community as mental illness! In fact, my difficulties in withdrawal was interpreted by a psych (what a mistake going to one of those for benzo) as "OCD"....apparentely, if one is desperately ill as I was decides to try and find out why (aka research), then they must have OCD. Before he found out I started researching my symptoms/problems with the benzo, he never mentioned I might have OCD. I didn't really have any of the symptoms anyway. But oh, yeah, he thought I should get on Luvox right away, despite the fact insomnia was a major side effect of that med in particular. What the.. ****?....that was my major withdrawal symptom and he was going to give me that ****?

So misenterpreting benzo and SSRi's reactions/side effects/withdrawals is exactly what gets people in the mental illness trap. I am also glad you mentioned alcohol too, because it can cause all sorts of anti-social behaviors, depression, and this can also be classed mental disease...after all, they do say alcholism is a "disease".....another mental one at that.

Sue Budweiser? C'mon howard, that's like suing McDonalds for being fat....anyone forcing you to eat the cheeseburger, or claiming it's a health food? The liquior industry makes no claims that alcohol is safe or cures any disease....unlike the drug companies. Alcohol is not recommended or imposed as medicine. There is no misleading or false claims of safety there.....

You forget, I'm an Ashton fan too. She also speaks of Protracted Benzo Withdrawal Syndrome. She doesn't guarentee you won't get it, only that most do not. But she states it does exist and is very real. Let's not assume, like the psychiatric community would, that anyone past two months withdrawal has to be nuts if they have symptoms still....that's just not true. That's the very thinking that causes normal, withdrawing/recovering people to be slapped back on meds they don't need..... :nono:

Quote from Jennita:

Whoo there howard,

Yep, I suppose I didn't make myself clear on the "causing" mental illness but you did hit it on the head in trying to decipher what I meant....yes, it's the withdrawal syndrome and antisocial behavior you mentioned! Those things are exactly what is interpreted by the psychiatric community as mental illness! In fact, my difficulties in withdrawal was interpreted by a psych (what a mistake going to one of those for benzo) as "OCD"....apparentely, if one is desperately ill as I was decides to try and find out why (aka research), then they must have OCD. Before he found out I started researching my symptoms/problems with the benzo, he never mentioned I might have OCD. I didn't really have any of the symptoms anyway. But oh, yeah, he thought I should get on Luvox right away, despite the fact insomnia was a major side effect of that med in particular. What the.. ****?....that was my major withdrawal symptom and he was going to give me that ****?

So misenterpreting benzo and SSRi's reactions/side effects/withdrawals is exactly what gets people in the mental illness trap. I am also glad you mentioned alcohol too, because it can cause all sorts of anti-social behaviors, depression, and this can also be classed mental disease...after all, they do say alcholism is a "disease".....another mental one at that.

Sue Budweiser? C'mon howard, that's like suing McDonalds for being fat....anyone forcing you to eat the cheeseburger, or claiming it's a health food? The liquior industry makes no claims that alcohol is safe or cures any disease....unlike the drug companies. Alcohol is not recommended or imposed as medicine. There is no misleading or false claims of safety there.....

You forget, I'm an Ashton fan too. She also speaks of Protracted Benzo Withdrawal Syndrome. She doesn't guarentee you won't get it, only that most do not. But she states it does exist and is very real. Let's not assume, like the psychiatric community would, that anyone past two months withdrawal has to be nuts if they have symptoms still....that's just not true. That's the very thinking that causes normal, withdrawing/recovering people to be slapped back on meds they don't need..... :nono:

LOL Jennita based on your internet personality you are obviously good people and understand that I am not trying to be mean spirited, only to stimulate discussion. I do not disagree with one word you have written above. No one will get away with labeling me mentally ill due to benzo withdrawals. I know what is going on.

And on another point you made to another poster... I am grateful to Ray Nimmo for posting the Ashton Manual on the net, or perhaps I would have thought I was losing my mind with all the symptoms. And, no doubt, it would not have been hard to find a shrink to validate that. But in case you did not know, Ray`s forum and the Ashton Manual are not one in the same. This is not something I have merely deduced, they will come right out and tell you, "we do not agree with every word she wrote." From there follows many new and some inconsistent claims. These usually fall under the heading of "our collective experiences," and for me, were often the tougher sells...

I have chosen to leave the site for the time being, maybe permanently as I could have already been kicked out again as my typed words at times seemed to be interpreted as attacks, but I was only testing the iron, put some fire on and see what is left and how solid it is, trying to learn. Part of a process, not intended as personal, is the way I was raised and trained throughout my education.

I do wish them well, but cannot handle reading some of the horror stories at the moment. Plus what I need more than anything right now is coaching on non-drug means for trying to stay calm. My nervous system is vulnerable and there seems to be a clear coorelation between symptoms and stress triggers. I have found some people from that forum that help in that area and I communicate with them through other means. You might have some ideas on this yourself. :)

P.S.
The Budwieser comments were hyperbole. Your distinction is valid.