Anyway, honestly because (I'm female) it's usually only prescribed for males at this point. They are afraid that females taking this will get pregnant and if we are carrying males, we will cause them birth defects (same as with accutane).
While I have no intentions of getting pregant, that can't happen if you're not having sex, there is a slight risk for those that are & taking BC. There are some females that have managed to get this prescribed, but for the rest of us (I haven't tried to), regarding hirsutism & alopecia, hopefully there will be something thats more effective & safer for us.
Oh yeah and yes. Avodart is 90% or 99% effective at reducing DHT levels. Much better than anything on the market.
[URL]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15126539[/URL]
[URL]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=14565784 [/URL]
(males look at this specifically)
Yep...those articles prove that Avodart will work. It gets kind of scary when they start talking about Impotence but it also says that incidence was generally low. Have you ever read the warnings on Accutane :eek: ...that sh** makes this stuff sound like a walk in the park. It seems like people should be knocking down the door to get this stuff. I've read articles that say that DHT isn't even needed...so what’s the problem? What kind of ticks me off is when you read that first article, "We hypothesized that inhibition of both isoenzymes with the dual inhibitor dutasteride would more effectively suppress serum DHT levels than selective inhibition of only the type 2 isoenzyme," they sound so nonchalant. Like they knew they could do this and just never have or something, whatever though. :o
Oh, I'm a guy sweetjade...could you not tell that by my post? Well anyway, now you know.
Knichol,
LOL, well not really. I use the word guys when I'm talking about females as in "hey, you guys" so... ;-) Ok, truthfully I didn't catch all of your post. Anyway, the problem is that males usually do experience the side effects. You only need the DHT during puberty and I guess a few years after unless you are planning on body building. That's one of the conflicts you see on this board. Some men think giving up the dream of big and buff is worth it for clear skin and others don't.
Roxcyn,
Yes this is by prescription only, but of course people have found ways around this. If you want to pay Double the money, you can go the illegal route or find an endocrinologist that would prescribe this for you. The side effects are not well noted yet. I haven't even heard anything about liver problems, but did find an article that mentioned men with liver disease should consult their physcian.
Spiro is 30% effective and that's at an average dose of 50mg. Myself and others have been on doses as high as 100mg - 200mg. I believe everyone on this board has gotten clear off such doses of Spiro, but I wasn't one of them. On the other hand, Avodart is 98% effective at 5 mg and 94% effective at 0.5 mg. So of course the standard dose is 0.5 mg (that's expensive enough). I wouldn't take Avodart if Spiro would work for you. It's definately much more potent and the side effects (for males) are greater.
It can be used to treat Benign Prostate Hyperplasia, Androgenic Alopecia, and since it inhibits both forms of DHT, it should also work to inhibit Acne and Hirsutism. It can also be used in conjunction with Spiro and/or BC for even better results. BC (estrogen) or proper dietary changes will reduce your overall Free Testosterone levels, which means less testosterone that will be converted into DHT. Thus, there's less DHT conversion that needs to be prevented by Avodart, Spiro, etc. This is probably why I noticed the best results for reducing my mild hirstusm when I was taking Spiro and altered my diet. When I stopped the spiro, I had to readjust my diet again to maintain 99% clarity that I had while I was taking it with my diet (spiro NEVER got my skin that clear w/other medications-antiandrogens). So personally, it just makes sense to work at reducing your overall production and then using the lowest dose Supplement or Medication to treat the rest.
I wouldn't take Avodart if Spiro would work for you. It's definately much more potent and the side effects (for males) are greater.
HTH =)
Sweetjade,
Why do you recommend spiro over avodart for males? I haven't seen any of the feminizing results w/ avodart that I have heard of w/ spiro. When you say, "It's definitely much more potent and the side effects (for males) are greater," by "it" are you referring to avodart?
Also, there used to be a guy on here a few months ago who was going to try avodart. He's since disappeared. So maybe it did work for him. I've heard of no other males trying avodart.
the only feminizing thing you might get with spiro is enlarged breast and you could get that on other prescription drugs also.you might lose some muscle mass but the main thing is your bone structure.it might keep you boy like if your still growing but most males over 20 have there bone structure developed and anti-androgens even when you combine it with a high dose of estrogen will not reverse it.its really up to you if you want to try spiro or avodart ect.dont drink a lot of orange juice or eat a lot of bananas on spiro.also spiro is much cheeper to buy than these other anti-androgens that rival accutane in there cost.even spiro will get expensive after awhile. i have seen it on the internet for about 30 dollars for 100.....100 mg pills.you can still get it rx ed and send the script to these internet drug stores and make it legal.i get mine at wal-mart though.i was surprised that spiro(aldactone)was availible way back in 1980 and nobody didnt know it could be used for acne.finally i still stick by my statement that anti-androgens should only be used after even accutane has been tried and didnt work.but its a free world or almost and if a guy really wants it then go for it but know what risks it may involve.and no spiro wont turn you into britney spears!
I've been reading these studies on Avodart and it appears that the chances of impotence side effects are very small. But Sweetjade was saying that most guys have side effects. So now I'm confused? :confused: Studies show: 5% chance of impotence, 3% decreased libido, 1.5% ejaculation disorders, and .5% Gynecomastia. These don't seem that high. Also it appears that symptoms decrease as time goes on.
Sweetjade...were did you get your info?
I need to find a forum where a lot of men have taken Avodart. The healthboards don't have a balding section that I see. I found that to be kind of surprising.
Knichol - You are right, there are apparently not a lot of users here that have tried Avodart. There was one poster a while back, Chicane was his name I believe, who was achieving good results from Avodart, but he has since disappeared.
After my reading here, I went to my derm with all the Avodart and spiro info I could print. I did not have to push very hard at all to get a spiro rx (I'm a male), but he was hesitant to go the Avodart route. It sounded to me like it was just too new and he was not very familiar with this drug and its potential use for acne. I decided to try the spiro and keep Avodart on my list of possibilities. Since I've been achieving some pretty good results with spiro, I'm not in a huge hurry to try Avodart right now.
I do believe that the commentary regarding potential side effects for males from spiro has been somewhat overstated on this board. If you read the specs for Aldactone the side effects do not appear to be any more alarming or frequent than those from Avodart (the ones you mentioned in your post). I'm taking 50 mg/day, and am really hesitant to take more than that, and have not seen any side effects other than some minor things that lasted the first few days.
Regarding discussion boards with Avodart info -- you have the right idea. Forums for discussing male pattern baldness tend to have a lot of folks talking about Avodart. I found it hard to get any useful info from these places because the users on these boards have a completely different chemical makeup and a different problem, and who knows how the drug affects them. I even saw some instances where users claimed that Avodart CREATED acne problems for them where none had existed before! That seems improbable to me. Anyway, it generated more confusion than answers.
Knichol - You are right, there are apparently not a lot of users here that have tried Avodart. There was one poster a while back, Chicane was his name I believe, who was achieving good results from Avodart, but he has since disappeared.
After my reading here, I went to my derm with all the Avodart and spiro info I could print. I did not have to push very hard at all to get a spiro rx (I'm a male), but he was hesitant to go the Avodart route. It sounded to me like it was just too new and he was not very familiar with this drug and its potential use for acne. I decided to try the spiro and keep Avodart on my list of possibilities. Since I've been achieving some pretty good results with spiro, I'm not in a huge hurry to try Avodart right now.
I do believe that the commentary regarding potential side effects for males from spiro has been somewhat overstated on this board. If you read the specs for Aldactone the side effects do not appear to be any more alarming or frequent than those from Avodart (the ones you mentioned in your post). I'm taking 50 mg/day, and am really hesitant to take more than that, and have not seen any side effects other than some minor things that lasted the first few days.
Regarding discussion boards with Avodart info -- you have the right idea. Forums for discussing male pattern baldness tend to have a lot of folks talking about Avodart. I found it hard to get any useful info from these places because the users on these boards have a completely different chemical makeup and a different problem, and who knows how the drug affects them. I even saw some instances where users claimed that Avodart CREATED acne problems for them where none had existed before! That seems improbable to me. Anyway, it generated more confusion than answers.
Clark,
How long have you been on spiro now? How was your acne before and how is it now?
Also, how would you know if you're potassium levels are too high? What are the side effects and consequences of elevated potassium levels?
Hey,
OK, I don't know who asked what so I'll just answer the questions that I remember. I am female therefore I answer questions that are relevant to both males and females. Spiro is more widely known and less potent than Avodart is and therefore that's why I said chose it over Avodart, IF it is working for you 100%. If spiro isn't working for you, like for me, then you may want to look more into Avodart.
I haven't read a PDR on Avodart yet (it's too new), but I know that Spiro is a drug used for high blood pressure, that just happens to also work as a mild DHT inhibitor (not the same as an anti-androgen). Therefore it does have greater side effect potential due to that alone. Tiredness, frequent urination, wieghtloss, dizziness, etc because of acne sufferers that are Spiro users are taking something that will also affect blood pressure. Also, for those allergic to Sulfa drugs, this will cause problems (some sufferers were allergic).
Avodart on the other hand is so new that I don't know what to think. From the few articles and abstracts I've read it seems like it was designed to inhibit both, Type 1 & 2 DHT enzymes and do only that (?). I haven't found anything on liver problems, the abstracts don't mention this so I don't know what to think. After reading the precautions listed on the online pharmacies, they are the same ones we've heard before.The basic ones associated with DHT inhibitors, Libido loss, muscle loss, etc, except that they say most of these symptoms should subside with time. Those allergic to spiro may want to try Avodart, since it has they claim it's low allergenic.
As a women, I noticed a gradual feeling of muscle weakness after years of spiro (6 years). I also noticed that my libido wasn't as strong. LOL, but once I went off of it, it came back some. ;-) I also lost 10lbs of water weight on spiro and it made me feel tired. The last 2 years, I just reduced the dosage from 200mg to 150mg and that fixed the tiredness. So, for those taking Spiro, don't increase the dosage unless it isn't working for you. Of course, the higher the dosage, the more susceptible you are to side effects which is why those that are taking this illegally NEED to get blood work, especially a Liver Panel done.
Spiro has been in use since the 1980s and before then, I don't know how long it was tested. Avodart was just released in 2004. Flutamide is actually far more potent than Spiro is, but it has very serious side effects involving the liver. On the other hand, Spiro has lots of scary side effects when you compare it to what is so far known about Avodart. My guess is that Avodart can be used topically, since they don't even want females touching this stuff! So that means it can have systemic effects, but possibly not to the degree as it would if taken orally. For those wanting to avoid side effects of orally taking drugs you may want to play around with it topically (create your own formula or get a compounding pharmacist). Again, the problem is getting your doctor to prescribe this to you, male or female. It's so new that they are afraid of it's potential (whatever it is that may be bad).
I'm not down on it, I'm quite excited about it. There's many things I'd like a good DHT inibitor, preferably natural, to fix. I just want you to be aware of what's out there and the possible reasons as to why many people aren't talking it. ;-)
Hey,
OK, I don't know who asked what so I'll just answer the questions that I remember. I am female therefore I answer questions that are relevant to both males and females. Spiro is more widely known and less potent than Avodart is and therefore that's why I said chose it over Avodart, IF it is working for you 100%. If spiro isn't working for you, like for me, then you may want to look more into Avodart.
I haven't read a PDR on Avodart yet (it's too new), but I know that Spiro is a drug used for high blood pressure, that just happens to also work as a mild DHT inhibitor (not the same as an anti-androgen). Therefore it does have greater side effect potential due to that alone. Tiredness, frequent urination, wieghtloss, dizziness, etc because of acne sufferers that are Spiro users are taking something that will also affect blood pressure. Also, for those allergic to Sulfa drugs, this will cause problems (some sufferers were allergic).
Avodart on the other hand is so new that I don't know what to think. From the few articles and abstracts I've read it seems like it was designed to inhibit both, Type 1 & 2 DHT enzymes and do only that (?). I haven't found anything on liver problems, the abstracts don't mention this so I don't know what to think. After reading the precautions listed on the online pharmacies, they are the same ones we've heard before.The basic ones associated with DHT inhibitors, Libido loss, muscle loss, etc, except that they say most of these symptoms should subside with time. Those allergic to spiro may want to try Avodart, since it has they claim it's low allergenic.
As a women, I noticed a gradual feeling of muscle weakness after years of spiro (6 years). I also noticed that my libido wasn't as strong. LOL, but once I went off of it, it came back some. ;-) I also lost 10lbs of water weight on spiro and it made me feel tired. The last 2 years, I just reduced the dosage from 200mg to 150mg and that fixed the tiredness. So, for those taking Spiro, don't increase the dosage unless it isn't working for you. Of course, the higher the dosage, the more susceptible you are to side effects which is why those that are taking this illegally NEED to get blood work, especially a Liver Panel done.
Spiro has been in use since the 1980s and before then, I don't know how long it was tested. Avodart was just released in 2004. Flutamide is actually far more potent than Spiro is, but it has very serious side effects involving the liver. On the other hand, Spiro has lots of scary side effects when you compare it to what is so far known about Avodart. My guess is that Avodart can be used topically, since they don't even want females touching this stuff! So that means it can have systemic effects, but possibly not to the degree as it would if taken orally. For those wanting to avoid side effects of orally taking drugs you may want to play around with it topically (create your own formula or get a compounding pharmacist). Again, the problem is getting your doctor to prescribe this to you, male or female. It's so new that they are afraid of it's potential (whatever it is that may be bad).
I'm not down on it, I'm quite excited about it. There's many things I'd like a good DHT inibitor, preferably natural, to fix. I just want you to be aware of what's out there and the possible reasons as to why many people aren't talking it. ;-)
Thanks so much for your input on this Sweetjade. You always seem to shed light on things.
Well, I just took the plunge and ordered some Avodart. Unlike Chicane, I will not stop posting here once my acne has cleared up...knock on wood. I've checked out some hairloss message boards, and there is no real talk of any side effects anyone has experienced.
Knichol and Poakfish - Here is my info: I have been taking 50/mg spiro per day for 2 weeks. I have also recently added back in 160 mg/day of saw palmetto. I had been taking 480/mg day of saw palmetto before the spiro, but it was causing extreme lethargy and mental fogginess, so I thought I'd try the lower dose of spiro/saw palmetto mix. The higher dose of saw palmetto, by the way, was working. But I needed to try something that had less of a "downer" effect. So far, the SP/spiro mix is also working, but with the same side effects. Reduced energy, decreased mental capacity (I compare it to a computer that has a bunch of programs open at one time -- the processing speed slows down).
Regarding potassium levels -- my derm is doing blood work to monitor this. I am 29 years old. I don't think I can really describe the condition of my skin with any accuracy -- of course most people here think there condition is "severe," and clearly I think mine troublesome enough to take a drug like spiro.
My plan right now is to continue with the spiro/SP mix and see if I can shake the side effects. Also, don't misunderstand, the improvement is certainly noticeable and quite enjoyable, but it's not a miracle and I'm doing other things. I avoid all refined sugars and dairy in my diet. I also use Tazorac and Duac, sparingly.
I'll keep everyone updated.
Clark, thanks for the information. My problem is that I don't have health insurance until I get a job this August. So monitoring my potassium levels would be a problem. Avodart, from what I can tell, does not have this side effect.
I do understand the mental fogginess you are speaking of. While I have never taken spiro, I did experience this when I was taking Accutane freshman year of college (8 years ago). I didn't realize it was Accutane that was causing it at the time, but as soon as I stopped Accutane, the fogginess went away. By "fogginess," I mean that I could not concentrate, I felt really low energy all the time, and I would just stare off w/ a blank look on my face basically. Looking back, I think it would be described as "depression."
Anyway, keep up the good fight. I am on 1,280mg SP/day; 260 beta sitosterol/day; and 6-9 grams B5/day. I will quit all of this when my Avodart comes in so that I will be able to pinpoint what is actually helping me.
This points out that in the FDA trials regarding use of Avodart for male pattern baldness, a higher "load dose" is used for an initial period.
Clark, I will be taking .5mg/day. I decided on this for several reasons:
1. On hairloss message boards, it appears that they are all taking this as the normal dosage. I've also received a positive response to a message I posted over there asking for feedback from those who had acne prior to taking avodart. [ removed ]
2. The load dosage you are referring to would be about 2.5mg/day, right? .5mg/day would cost you about $80/month. Pretty costly, I'd say. I have learned that the generic form of Avordart (called Dutas) will be out shortly and will only cost 1/3 of the price of Avodart.
This is awesome. For anyone that doesn't know, I started this thread and I feel great about it. Poakfish has just ordered, I think it's going to work out for him, and promised to give us feedback unlike that other no name loser. Also, people are informed and more knowledgeable about their options if there reading the posts on this thread. I feel awesome!!! I feel like I'm helping people and making a difference. Now I know why veterans keep posting. It just makes you feel good to help others. Now I have to go because there is a cosmetic surgery seminar tonight. Hopefully I can get some good info on acne scarring. There is supposed to be before and after pics also. Later
Let us know if you learn anything interesting.
Actually, we should give some credit to Sweetjade. She posted an awesome post a while back that included a list of anti-androgen/dht blockers. On that list was Avodart. I'm glad you brought this topic back to the forefront though.
Poakfish - Wow, you've got a lot of stuff going into your system. I used to hate it when people told me that back when I was doing 6-10g/day of B5. I know what it's like to want to do ANYTHING to make the condition better. The problem is -- if anything starts working, you won't know which ingredient is doing it. I think it's a good idea to stop all the other stuff before you do the Avodart.
How long have you been on these doses of SP, BS, and b5? I know that I started to see some real results once I hit 480 mg/day of SP, but had to bring it down because I couldn't walk and chew gum at the same time. I would really expect you to be seeing some results from that cocktail that you are taking.
I may have also had the fogginess side effect with Accutane, but I just can't remember. I know that I have had a few things that I have tried over the last year or so that have produced this result -- the worst was the megadoses of b5. I became a zombie.
And yes, the load dose that I had read about in the FDA trials for baldness was 2.5 mg/day. Good info regarding Dutas -- it's good to know that a generic option is coming along.
I was wondering if Sweejade or someone w/ a scientific background could reconcile this study w/ the viability of Avodart in controlling acne? Or at least make me feel better.
Paddywhack,
I wish I could tell you definately, but the studies have not been done. I know that there's studies that have shown that it reduces prostate cancer and increases hair growth on your head. I know from other's experiences that it can also decrease facial and body hair (including body builders). Yet when it comes to acne, I haven't heard anything positive.
It inhibits both enzymes for DHT and therefore, it should be effective, very effective, at preventing acne. Yet body builders are saying that they developed acne (never had it before) after several months on this drug or Finasteride (60% DHT inhibition). From what male & female users have said, Finasteride (Propecia -70%, Proscar) is not helpful for acne and only work for male pattern baldness and prostate problems.
Now there's several theories behind this:
Testosterone increase - estrogen decrease: DHT inibhitors are also aromatase inhibitors. Therefore, while you aren't producing as much DHT, you will still be producing Testosterone. Normally testoerone gets converted into Estrogen and other Androgens (DHEA, Androstendione - also can convert to estrogen). If you inhibit aromatase you prevent your Excess Testosterone from converting into Estrogen. Of course this usually isn't a problem, unless you're estrogen defficient, because estrogen fuels some cancers (like prostate cancer, breast cancer). Not to mention that buiild up of testosrone should help you maintain your libido etc, since you don't have as much of your supertestosterone. I know some people freak out when they hear this, but everything works well in it's own context. Like Zinc for example, studies have shown that it decreases acne and is a DHT inhibitor, but with the right supplements it can also increase DHT.
Estrogen Dominance - There's something called estrogen dominance an it has been associated with certain cancers, prostate enlargement, and fibroids and/or ovarian cysts (in women). Women with PCOS are supposedly estrogen dominant, and yet they still produce more male hormones too. I was reading somewhere that estrogen has the ability to cause inflammatory induced acne, in those that are normally not acne prone. This may or may not be a male only concern, but perhaps there's an increase of estrogen in comparison to testosterone in the male body when DHT is inhibited. you would think this is a good thing (males don't like having too little estrogen) since estrogen is an antiandrogen, which is why BC is given to most women with acne. There's definately a delicate balance here, but of course, Joeh would have to contest this theory because he actually is ALSO taking estrogen, and he's clear.
Opposing Forces Theory - From what I've read, this is something that is primarily body builders or men are experiencing. If so, well duh, body builders and clear skin (for those that are acne prone) don't seem to go together very well. If it's not the Anti-androgens and DHT Inhibitors, then it's the Hormonally Balanced diet that they can't follow, because they won't get "large" enough. Of course there's other solutions, but for those that want to follow one those lines of attack, they may not be too happy.
The reason for this is because, the Carb Loading is going to boost your overall steroid hormone production. The Protein Shakes, Dairy, HGH, & select hormone boosting supplements are going to boost your DHT production (directly or through IGF-1). Since you've boosted your hormones, your liver will produce more enzymes to convert testosterone into DHT. So, here we have people that are (includes many males & females on the board) only taking a DHT inhibitor (or antiandrogen), which can't always be effective enough at combatting the above dietary elements. It's like you want 1 or 2 pills to fight against the very thing that you keep increasing over and over on a daily basis. You have two opposing forces here and depending on your sensitivity level, one is going to be greater than the other.
The best line of attack for someone whose body is more stubborn is to reduce the carb loading (some take B5 & Low Carb/Gluten-Free when not training) so that you reduce your overall production. Try Red Star Nutritional Yeast or Rice Powder Protein as your supplement. Then take a DHT inhibitor. That way, at least you aren't producing as much testosterone, which means you won't produces as much DHT and the DHT inhibitor will be more effective.
Otherwise, I really can't help you there. The increase in acne may be due to one of the above factors and they aren't aware that they are taking something that's a little too potent and is affecting their skin. Other avodart males said that they had acne initially and that it went away after a 2 weeks. Others said that Finasteride (generic Propecia) gave them forehead and/or body acne and that Avodart helped clear it up. So it really depends on what kind of hormonal situation you have going on. In fact, I know some women reported increased facial hair growth on Spiro or Saw Palmetto, but most of us don't get those effects...usually the opposite.
Clark and Poakfish,
You both are doing really good things. I don't know how long you've been on those regimens but it does take 3 - 6 months to see results. You both are attacking DHT in several different ways. Depending on one's sensitivity level that's exactly what more of us may have to do.
c) Increase Aromatase - increases testosterone conversion into estrogen, which means less that will convert to DHT! How?
2. DHT Inhibitors a) Inhibit DHT enzymes - [Accutane - temp. effects], Flutamide, Spironolactone, Propecia, Avodart, Saw Palmetto, Stinging Nettle*, & Zinc-B6 (this may or may not contribute to increased or decreased sensitivity overtime).
b) DHT analogues - GLA (Evening primrose, Pumpkin Seed, Flax seed oils), Saw Palmetto (sterols), Beta Sitosterol, Soy isoflavones (Eqoul-Diadzein & Genistein), Green Tea, Pygeum, Stinging Nettle*. These look like DHT structurally, but aren't. They bind to the Androgen Receptors to block DHT from binding, thus it can't interact with those receptors. (this may or may not contribute to increased or decreased sensitivity overtime)
c) DHT binders - something enzyme or hormone that specifically binds to DHT to deactivate it. Does it exist?
3. Breakdown DHT - Estrogen is rumored to catabolize this and is also rumored to inhibit it's break down. I haven't found anything to support this either way. An Enzyme created this so an enzyme should destroy this, but how? By blocking the Androgen Receptor sites, DHT is supposed to be broken down and excreted. However, at this point, it seems that science doesn't know how increase that effect (safely).
So as you can see, there's hope, but there's so many questions when it comes to DHT and unfortunately there's still not enough answers. Any of you that want to be scientists please do so. There's plenty of mysteries that have yet to be solved. ;-)
HTH
P.S. *Something fascinating for you males (unsure for us females), is that Stinging nettle binds to both the Androgen Receptors to Block DHT , and also SHBG to block Free Testosterone. Now usually you would want Free Testosterone bound to SHBG so that it won't aromatize, but since you are blocking DHT, by leaving Free Testosterone free, you are able to maintain your libido....
